Since your a hand tool kind of guy, you can make a few of these binding cutters. Mr. O'brien made these for me. 2 shots taken of front and back.
Good luck!
Tracy
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| Author: | RobertJeffery [ Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:18 am ] |
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I am new to luthiery but have built many pieces of furniture. I tend to use only hand tools because power tools scare the snot out of me. Is there another way of cutting in for the binding and perfling other than using a router? How was it done in the "old" days? I cut rosettes using an Exacto (tm) knife set up like a bar compass. |
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| Author: | old man [ Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:28 am ] |
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Welcome to the forum, Robert. I'm sure there are several here who have done it all by hand and they'll be along shortly. My guess would be a gammil and a chisel, but I haven't done it myself. Ron |
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| Author: | RobertJeffery [ Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:53 am ] |
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Thank you, Ron. |
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| Author: | peterm [ Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:56 am ] |
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I used a Gramil and a chisel on my last one. Not that I don't prefer the router but the wood was to fragile to route. Welcome to the forum. |
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| Author: | LuthierSupplier [ Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:56 am ] |
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Since your a hand tool kind of guy, you can make a few of these binding cutters. Mr. O'brien made these for me. 2 shots taken of front and back.
Good luck! Tracy |
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| Author: | RobertJeffery [ Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:12 pm ] |
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Thank you, Peter and Tracy. PS I googled both gammil and Gramil and couldn't get an Idea of what they were. Any idea where I should look? (Told you I was new) |
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| Author: | RCoates [ Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:23 pm ] |
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The pictures Tracy posted are gramils. There are metal ones available from LMI one of our forum sponsors. I have this one. That and a good set of chisels, and you golden. Oh yeah I almost forgot, Welcome to the OLF. |
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| Author: | RCoates [ Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:26 pm ] |
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Hey Tracy do those use a Japanese marking knife as the blade? |
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| Author: | RobertJeffery [ Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:31 pm ] |
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Thank you Ronn. down into the wood shop for me! |
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| Author: | LuthierSupplier [ Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:53 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=RCoates] Hey Tracy do those use a Japanese marking knife as the blade?[/QUOTE] Actually, it is a japanese blade that was 6" long but cut in half and ground to the right shape. Tracy |
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| Author: | KiwiCraig [ Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:53 pm ] |
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Hi Robert, I use a sloan type . It's important that the blade be incredibly sharp. The first pass must be so light ,that only the weight of the tool itself makes a fine score . From there , you can afford to be a little firmer with the tool. Craig Lawrence |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:03 pm ] |
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I use a somewhat different marking gauge when I'm doing them by hand, rather than the 'traditional' gramil, but it amounts to the same thing. FWIW, it takes me about two days to cut the rabbets by hand, with chisels and the gauge, but they come out just as exact as with the router, if not better. I, too, really dislike routers in particular: a 'handful of screaming emergency', but sometimes you just can't take the time. Still, I tend to do things by hand; I've never heard of anybody taking off an arm with a 5/8" chisel. |
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| Author: | RobertJeffery [ Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:58 am ] |
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To all, Thank you for the warm welcome! What a great bunch of Guys (gender neutral term)! 
KiwiCraig, I thought Kiwis were New Zealanders... But the tip about starting out with a light touch is so true with hand work. It is easy to take too much off, very hard to put it on. 
Mr. Carruth, I was going to design a small knife holder for the Japanese skew chisel I have. I would be interested in seeing your design. |
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| Author: | K.O. [ Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:22 am ] |
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I'm wondering if a couple of L shaped moulding scraper planes would work? Bearing surfaces would have to be felt covered or something to keep them from marking up the instrument but it seems like it would work. Any one seen anything of the sort? |
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| Author: | Martin Turner [ Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:09 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=RobertJeffery] KiwiCraig, I thought Kiwis were New Zealanders... [/QUOTE] They are....but half of them live in Australia. A Kiwi is also a funny looking brown fruit with a brown furry skin on the outside...looks a bit like Serge's arms 
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| Author: | Martin Turner [ Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:11 pm ] |
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A cheap low tech way to cut rosette channels....get a paddle pop and stick a hole in end and an exacto kife through the other. Use a drill bit as a pivot pin on your sound board. See Campiano and co's book for details |
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| Author: | Evan Heisler [ Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:30 pm ] |
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Can anyone point me to a "how to" on building a gramil? I think I understand it from the pictures, but without seeing one in action, I'm a little unclear on the details. In the one Robbie built, is it simply wedges that keep everything together? Does the wood piece parallel to the blade ride along the top/back, then also along the side to cut the square ledge? If this is the case, does the wood piece have to be compensated to run along the radiused surfaces? Its possible I'm over thinking this one, but I to am not keen of power tools either, and would love to be able to do this task sitting at a work bench listening to music, rather than the drone of a motor. |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:01 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=kiwigeo] [QUOTE=RobertJeffery] KiwiCraig, I thought Kiwis were New Zealanders... [/QUOTE] They are....but half of them live in Australia. A Kiwi is also a funny looking brown fruit with a brown furry skin on the outside...looks a bit like Serge's arms [/QUOTE]
Ha ha! No Martin, i will not shave my fur with my chisels, got that?
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| Author: | Martin Turner [ Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:00 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=EHeisler] Its possible I'm over thinking this one, but I to am not keen of power tools either, and would love to be able to do this task sitting at a work bench listening to music, rather than the drone of a motor.[/QUOTE] Put on some really bad trunk thumping homeboy doofa music and then the drone of the router will sound like music to your ears. |
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| Author: | KiwiCraig [ Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:55 pm ] |
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[QUOTE]A Kiwi is also a funny looking brown fruit with a brown furry skin on the outside...looks a bit like Serge's arms [/QUOTE]
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:41 am ] |
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'The drone of the motor' is not how I would characterize the sound of my router! It's a scream, at 103 dBA @ 3'. 'Safe' exposure time at that level is less than 15 minutes per day. If you want to drown that out with some music, you'll have to run the radio a lot higher, +3-10 dB, and 110 dBA is a jet engine at 3 feet, safe exposure time, zero! No thanks. I can't post a picture, but my marking gauge is pretty simple in principle. There's a handle, with a square post straight out on the same line. The marking knife is set in the end of the post, at a right angle. There's a round rider on the post, with a setscrew. You just move the rider back to the right distance from the knife, lock it down, and mark away. I have a screw and spring setup to make fine adjustments easy, but that's a luxury. I use it for both marks; run the rider on the side to mark the top and back, then change the setting and run the rider on the top or back to mark the sides. Make all the marks before making any of the cuts. The usual gramil has the marking knife and guide post in line with the handle. This allows you to put more pressure on the cut for stock removal, but also tends to hide the cut under your fist. The right angle gauge is a marker only; I don't use it to remove stock. That's done with chisels, small planes, and safe-edge files. Hand cutting binding is actually somewhat enjoyable, if the tools are sharp. It just takes so long that it's hard to justify when a router can be made to work. I will say that I've had just as many 'whoops' moments with the router as with the hand tools, and the router 'whoopses' are usually harder to fix. |
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| Author: | Colin S [ Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:30 am ] |
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[QUOTE=kiwigeo] [QUOTE=RobertJeffery] KiwiCraig, I thought Kiwis were New Zealanders... [/QUOTE] They are....but half of them live in Australia. [/QUOTE]
And the rest, with the displaced Aussies, live here in Earl's Court, can't move for hats with corks dangling from them 
Colin |
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| Author: | Evan Heisler [ Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:24 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Alan Carruth] 'If you want to drown that out with some music, you'll have to run the radio a lot higher, +3-10 dB, and 110 dBA is a jet engine at 3 feet, safe exposure time, zero! No thanks. [/QUOTE] And once I finish the guitar, I would like to know how it sounds! Thanks for the help, and it sounds like your simple setup would be easy to replicate. I can imagine what I need it to do, now I just need to make something to do it... |
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| Author: | Martin Turner [ Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:07 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=Colin S] [QUOTE=kiwigeo] [QUOTE=RobertJeffery] KiwiCraig, I thought Kiwis were New Zealanders... [/QUOTE] They are....but half of them live in Australia. [/QUOTE]
And the rest, with the displaced Aussies, live here in Earl's Court, can't move for hats with corks dangling from them
Colin[/QUOTE] Colin, you need to watch the movie 'The Adventures of Barry McKenzie". Barry Crocker did a fine job of capturing the "cultural sophistication" of the expat Ozzies living in and around Earl's Court. |
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